Snapshot: Jerusalem (Israel/Palestine)
Snapshots are mini town/city guides for smaller places or cities I have only experienced briefly. Here’s a little snapshot of Jeruslaem.
What are one’s first impressions of Jerusalem?
Jewish quarter, old city.
The old city in East Jerusalem is one of the nicest places I’ve ever visited. Within its walls, markets burst with life and each quarter (Muslim, Jewish, Christian & Armenian) offers something unique. As a history buff, I was creaming my pants.
But while the setting in magical, a sinister undertone presides. The majority of residents of the old city are Palestinians, but heavily-armed Israeli solders stalk the streets. The occupation is very visible and it’s depressing. The weirdest thing about the city is seeing a “Israeli will prevail” t-shirt in one stall, then a “Free Palestine” tshirt in the next. It’s fucked up.
What are the women like?
I’ve met some gorgeous and sweet Palestinian girls, but they don’t really mix with the Jewish population in West Jerusalem where all the nightlife is. As such, you’ll be mainly meeting Jewish Israeli chicks. There is a good mix of Yemenite Jews (darker types) and Russian & Eastern European Jews (whites, blondes). But apparently most of the real hotties hang out in Tel Aviv.
With all the hype I’ve heard about Israeli girls, the ones in Jerusalem were very disappointing. They dress like men – worse than American women. I didn’t see one chick in a dress or high heels. Some of the girls of Russian-types were pretty cute, but in general the standard wasn’t as high as expected – not a patch on Beirut.
The worst thing were the attitudes. Israeli women are forced into the army for two years and many come out the other end as little monsters. The ones from Jerusalem (where the conflict is most intense) are the worst of them. I was only there for one Saturday night, and while some chicks we met were cool, the general impression I was left with one of a horde of masculine, aggressive, rude, opinionated, brainwashed, racist, bigoted bitches.
...at least they're forced in shape.
The next neo-Zionist cow I meet will be hate-fucked for her sins. I’ll make her gag on my uncircumcised cock, slap her and spit in her face.
I’ll dominate her so bad she’ll want to cum harder than she ever has in her life – but I’ll stop pounding her the moment before she’s about to climax. Then I’ll cum on her face and then wipe my cock on her teddy bear.
Grrr.
Fortunately, not all Israeli girls are so zealous. I’m not writing them off just yet. I banged one in Montenegro who was sound, and a rock-star in bed. The girls in Tel Aviv are supposed to be 10x hotter and cooler, so I only when I visit the city will I cast my verdict with a proper report.
As it stands, I’d much prefer to sex a Palestinian girl (I don’t have that flag), but I reckon my best chances was running refugee game in Lebanon. Sigh..
Where should I go at night-time?
In West Jerusalem they is good concentration of bars around the meeting of Yaffo street and Rivlin street. It’s the perfect place for a pub crawl. If I remember correctly (I was pretty drunk), the best bar I found for picking up was Sideways. We also also had some bites at Mike’s place.
The Bottom Line
Beautiful city, pity it’s full of neo-Zionist assholes.
DISCLAIMER: I respect the Jewish people, but not neo-Zionism. There’s is a massive difference… before you start labelling me a Nazi.
Tags: Dating in Israel, Dating in Jerusalem, Dating in Palestine, Dating Israeli girls, Getting laid in Israel, Getting laid in Jerusalem, Jerusalem nightlife, Nightlife in Jerusalem, Pick up joints in Jerusalem, Picking up girls in Jerusalem, sex guide Jerusalem, Sex in Isreali, sex in Palestine
that was honest and fearless,aren’t you worried about being labelled an anti-semitte or some shit…..Is Tel Aviv on the horizon soon?
The world would be much better off without Zionists and other such psychopaths. I avoid Jews and Chinese (their Asian counterparts) as a matter of principle.
P.S. ‘Within its walls’ … there’s no apostrophe with the possessive.
The girls in Tel Aviv are surprisingly hot. I never really took notice of the Israeli women in Jerusalem, which should tell you about much lower the talent there is.
I wouldn’t be too hard on Tel Aviv Israelis. They’re rude assholes, but they’re modern and secular. If Muslims are sincerely primitive, then Zionists are deliberately stupid. What I mean is that Muslims hold to old superstitions which they have yet to forego, whereas Israelis are people who gave up on their old beliefs and then re-embraced them.
Israelis in Tel Aviv don’t want to be lectured about their militarism, but they don’t really care about their religion too strongly. It’s only in Jerusalem where you will see weirdos with unshorn temples curling down their heads.
Here are some ways to insult American girls:
1. If she is fat, say:
“Are you pregnant?”
OR
“Are you sure you should be eating that?”
2. Pretend like you talking to a friend on a mobile phone
and complain loudly about fatties near fat chicks.
3. If she has a tattoo, say:
“Is that a bug or dirt on your skin?”
OR
“I thought tattoos were only for bikers, criminals, or whores.”
4. If she smokes, say:
“Gross! Smoking is such a turn-off. Lung cancer is not sexy.”
5. If she wears flip-flops, say:
“Wow, girls in other countries like Russia and Brazil dress like women.”
‘The weirdest thing about the city is seeing a “Israeli will prevail” t-shirt in one stall, then a “Free Palestine” tshirt in the next. It’s fucked up.’
LOL, don’t be, they’re both Semites, they’ll diss each other in public and then negotiate behind closed doors. They’ll also tolerate each other when it helps them make dosh.
I never got this and ive subscribed?
@Lee: Problem solved, you’ll get emails from now on
[...] “She Wants to Be Treated Like a Child, Right?”Naughty Nomad – “Snapshot: Jerusalem (Israel/Palestine)”Xsplat – “Dealing with Psychopathology”Rollo Tomassi – “Guilt [...]
Hey NaughtyNomad.
First of all I’d like to say I’m a big fan.
Before I went to Thailand this year I studied some of your moves on shoring, it was very successful over there.
Anyway I’m also a Jew born and raised (and still living) in Israel.
I was a bit disappointed with the way you chose your words on this article and I’ll tell you why.
Women in Israel in general are very difficult. They are snobs who would like to have their men invest (a decent amount of time and money) until they open the way for you into “their heaven”. Non the less (so I’ve heard) women in Tel-Aviv are more liberal and that’s why your former experience here was good. Once you try ANY other city in Israel you are bound to get the same results as in Jerusalem. I think the reason that stands behind this is that most of the ladies in Israel come from religious homes were sex is an act of love and marriage (did you know Jewish religious people need to marry before they are allowed to have sex, how weird is that ? thats like buying the cow without tasting the milk!)
So basically I suggest next time you come over for a visit unless you’re going to Tel-Aviv don’t get your expectations too high
Hope you keep the good articles coming.
Next year I’m going to need some new tips
-Johnnie
Hey NN,
I’m an Israeli fan, and I couldn’t ignore the things you wrote about Israel.
Let’s start with the fact that I do agree with your opinions about Jerusalem, its women and all other crazy life-forms it has (AKA, Ultra-orthodox Jews).
Regardless, your post smells of Israel-hate, why? Because I don’t remember you criticizing the massacre that Assad does, which is happening RIGHT FUCKING NOW, and already more people died there then Israel killed in a decade.
Even more, there are more human rights being broken, and lives taken in Africa (that you seem to love) DAILY, than Israel could have ever.
Bottom line is, if you want to criticize Israel, you have the right to do so, and I believe that a surprising number of Israelis would agree, but please don’t just of those uneducated “Israel is an apartheid state, blah blah blah”.
Keep the up the good work with your blog, it helped me a lot since you know what women I’m facing.
Hey NaughtyNomad.
I’m really sorry to be the one that inform you that your post is 100% Anti-Semite, despite you convince it isn’t. Your post is loaded with nothing but a flaming hate to the Israeli-Jwes. You can send it to some racist Neo-Nazi magazine and it will fit just right in there.
And you know what is the worst thing? I’ll tell you what is it:
You don’t have the slightest idea of what is really going on between the Israelis and the Palestinians. You think you do, but believe me – You don’t! You have no idea how complex the situation is. You see Israelis and you immediately being fill with ignorance-hate. I strongly encourage you to ask yourself some difficult questions regarding your sources of knowledge about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I bet that everything you know comes directly from the Irish media and other European-countries media, wich is known, for a very long time, to be ultra anti-Israeli regardless to the facts and to their professional credibility.
I will not even try to describe you how worng you are, further than what I already wrote. I will not give you examples of numerous Palestinians that brutally slaughtered infant Israeli-Jews, wich the only crime they ever made was breathing. You will have to seek this information by yourself, you will have to walk this path of truth by yourself. You can start (it’s really only the edge of the iceberg) with what hendrix wrote above me. Good luck!
I’ll will conclude with that – if you have the slightest sense of dignity you should remove your post wich smells much like a brutal Neo-Nazi propoganda.
I’m sure the Nazis told their citizens they were victims too.
Click here and tell us who the victims are.
I will not even try to crash your arrogant stupid statements with facts, as you will ignore these because you’re simply anti Semitic and that’s cool, after all you are European and it’s as normal for many of you as it’s normal for you to drink beer.
I just wish you that on your next travel to Africa (amazing continent, I spent 8 years all over of it, working for Israeli company) you will become subject to human experiments, where 6 black HIV homosexuals and one 6’1 foot Ghanaian shemale will test the flexibility of your rectum by stretching your well trained anus to its limits and charge it with their loads time and again. For full effect they will dressed up like British soldiers and cum in your dirty mouth and on your face, then sticking the British flag in your bleeding asshole, tearing it by that and leaving you without any control over your body openings so that for you next trip you will also add info about diapers prices and availability of HIV cocktail.
So I’m having a hard time trying to understand what do you implying…
Do you imply that there is no daily Palestinian terror attacks targeting unarmed Israeli citizens? Do you imply that Palestinian murderers haven’t got in houses inside Israel, not in the so called “Occupied Territories” (From who was it occupied? Was there ever a Palestinian entity in those territories?), and brutally slaughtered the entire families in those houses??
Or maybe it is your sources of information (i.e. the Irish media) that hide this information from you, against their own professional credibility? Maybe you can answer that: how comes that in the Irish media it’s always the Israelis who start firing? Did you ever ask yourself if there were any attacks against Israel that preceded the Israeli fire? I guess not… you already got it all figured out, don’t you?
You talked on and on about the so-called “Neo-Zionist”. Now, I have to ask you that – do you even know what “Zionist” means? Well, let me help you with that – Zionist is a person who believe that the Jewish people have their right for self-determination in a sovereign state of their own. It has nothing to do with the Palestinian’s right for self-determination in a sovereign state of their own. Actually, today even the right-wing Israeli political parties acknowledge the right of the Palestinians to establish a sovereign state. How many Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israel to exist? You know what was the Palestinian’s answer to almost every peace initiative? Their answer was crazy suicide bombings on Israeli cities targeting unarmed civilians.
If you think your link means anything then you are really not worth even the very low credit that I let you have until now. Do you think that Israel should apologize that it has a military force to protect it own citizens and capable to harm its enemies more that they can harm Israel? Do you think that the Irish government would tolerate a constant missile firing on Irish villages, towns and cities? Do you think that the Irish Defence Forces will have a governmental order to try and claim only the number of lives that the enemy took from them? Don’t you think that they’ll try to get their hands on anyone that wants to kill Irish citizens?
And about the unarmed Palestinians – I can assure you, sincerely and honestly, that no one in Israel wants them to be killed or wounded or anything. The “freedom fighters” (as you probably consider them) of the terrorist organization “Hamas” (that deny the right of Israel to exist and abuse its own people with harsh Islamist laws against women, homosexual and anyone who is not Islamist) use the Palestinians citizens as human shields and use the populated areas as a base of operation. Believe me when I say that the IDF would much prefer to take the fighting to a open unpopulated are. Unfortunately the IDF can’t always choose where the fighting will take place.
Now let me tell you one more thing about the Israeli girls whom you pretend to know anything about? First, they are just the best!! A wonderful combination of rare beauty, self-confidence and intelligence. Second, You wrote about their “masculine, aggressive, rude, opinionated” attitude. Well, this attitude preserved only for guys like you with such a low self-confidence and shameful ignorance.
And you know what? Try to touch, or simply get close enough, to any of those “gorgeous and sweet Palestinian girls” that you met and you will risk those girls of being outcast by their own families and you will risk your own hands being cut off by their brothers. You’re welcome to do so…
You should read that official “welcome” letter the Israeli government has issued to the pro-Palestinian “flytilla” activists who plan on arriving in the country on Saturday and Sunday. It reads as follows:
“Dear Activists,
We appreciate your choosing to make Israel the object of your humanitarian concerns.
We know there were many other worthy choices.
You could have chosen to protest the Syrian regime’s daily savagery against its own people, which has claimed thousands of lives.
You could have chosen to protest the Iranian regime’s brutal crackdown on dissent and its support of terrorism throughout the world.
You could have chosen to protest Hamas rule in Gaza, where terror organizations commit a double war crime by firing rockets at civilians and hiding behind civilians.
But instead, you chose to protest against Israel, the Middle East’s sole democracy, where women are equal, the press criticizes the government, human rights organizations can operate freely, religious freedom is protected for all – and minorities do not live in fear.
Therefore, we suggest you solve the real problems of the region first, and then come back and share your experiences with us.
Have a nice flight”
By the way, I don’t need my government or anyone else to tell me I’m a victim. I can tell it myself when I’m seating at my university classroom and all of a sudden have to run for cover of missiles falling on the university’s city (no, not an army base!); I can tell it myself when I have to think twice before getting on public bus or train afraid of being bomb to pieces; I can tell it myself when my family want to gather for dinner in a restaurant and have to consider if it’s worth the risk of “putting all the eggs in one basket”, meaning to have us all gone together at once.
Well, we don’t have to fear most of those stuff anymore, at least not as we use to fear of them only few years ago. That is because we protected ourselves from those who seek to harm us. I guess It is count as a “war crime” for self-righteous, hypocrite, double standard ignorant like you.
For people like you any national sentiment is legit, as long as it is not an Israeli national sentiment. In your world the Palestinians can carry on despicable terrorist attacks in the name of their nationalistic purpose (which is not having a sovereign state of their own, it is to eliminate the state of Israel), but the Israelis can not protect themselves in the name of the willing to live. Israel protects its own citizens like no other state have ever done before or since: The IDF literally risking Israeli soldiers and Israeli civilians by taking actions intent of trying not to endanger unarmed Palestinian civilians. Other countries such as the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France and many other, who send troops to Afghanistan, thousands of kilometers away of their homelands (not fighting near their home like Israel), never done half to protect civilians of being victims to fighting than what Israel doing daily.
@GS: Lol. That’s a sexy image. I used the Hitler image for mere sensationalism and the lolz because I’m an un-PC bastard. I’m not actually anti-semitic in the slightly.
@Mr. Truth: Dude, and you’re saying I’m a victim of propaganda. “Terrorist this and terrorist that”, you sound like Fox news. Firstly, I’m an expert on the subject and doing my masters on the conflict so I’m quite qualified to comment on the issue.
Secondly, your letter actually has some good points. Israel is beckon of democracy, freedom of speech and gender equality in the region. That is precisely why it attracts scrutiny. Essentially you’re in the Western club with us, so you’re expected to perform to higher standards in behaviour. Don’t worry about the other “crazy countries” around you. The western media play PLENTY of attention to them. Also, there’s a difference between a state that oppresses it’s own people (Libya et al), and state that oppresses another people (Israel). Intra-state conflict and inter-state conflict are different, under the law, and in the eyes of the sovereign. The callousness of Israel for it violations of international law and human right undermine the ENTIRE international system.
Thirdly, and most importantly, NEO-Zionist is fundamentally different than Zionist, you idiot. I have no problem with the existence of a Jewish State. It’s tribalism in all it’s glory.
Neo-Zionism is a rejection on the two state solution and the expansion of Israeli borders to include the West Bank and Gaza.
My media is bias, I agree. You know why? Because the Irish people know what’s it like to be occupied and oppressed by a more powerful, colonial power. We fought back, often violently, are we were called terrorists and barbarians in the British media too. But after 800 years of struggle we got our independence. I simply wish the Palestinians are afforded the same dignity.
But then what would I know? I’m an anti-semitic, neo-nazi, terrorist, apparently.
Naughty Nomad. You Rock!
NN, your last comment was a beauty!
So you don’t have a problem huge walled and guarded borders in Israel keeping out invaders, as long as the borders are where they were originally drawn?
I’m jewish, grandson of holocaust survivors. he’s not anti-semitic. Read some Norman Finkelstein and quit whining.
Read this:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/nicky-larkin-israel-is-a-refuge-but-a-refuge-under-siege-3046227.html
Nicky Larkin: Israel is a refuge, but a refuge under siege
Through making a film about the Israeli-Arab conflict, artist Nicky Larkin found his allegiances swaying
I used to hate Israel. I used to think the Left was always right. Not any more. Now I loathe Palestinian terrorists. Now I see why Israel has to be hard. Now I see the Left can be Right — as in right-wing. So why did I change my mind so completely?
Strangely, it began with my anger at Israel’s incursion into Gaza in December 2008 which left over 1,200 Palestinians dead, compared to only 13 Israelis. I was so angered by this massacre I posed in the striped scarf of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation for an art show catalogue.
Shortly after posing in that PLO scarf, I applied for funding from the Irish Arts Council to make a film in Israel and Palestine. I wanted to talk to these soldiers, to challenge their actions — and challenge the Israeli citizens who supported them.
I spent seven weeks in the area, dividing my time evenly between Israel and the West Bank. I started in Israel. The locals were suspicious. We were Irish — from a country which is one of Israel’s chief critics — and we were filmmakers. We were the enemy.
Then I crossed over into the West Bank. Suddenly, being Irish wasn’t a problem. Provo graffiti adorned The Wall. Bethlehem was Las Vegas for Jesus-freaks — neon crucifixes punctuated by posters of martyrs.
These martyrs followed us throughout the West Bank. They watched from lamp-posts and walls wherever we went. Like Jesus in the old Sacred Heart pictures.
But the more I felt the martyrs watching me, the more confused I became. After all, the Palestinian mantra was one of “non-violent resistance”. It was their motto, repeated over and over like responses at a Catholic mass.
Yet when I interviewed Hind Khoury, a former Palestinian government member, she sat forward angrily in her chair as she refused to condemn the actions of the suicide bombers. She was all aggression.
This aggression continued in Hebron, where I witnessed swastikas on a wall. As I set up my camera, an Israeli soldier shouted down from his rooftop position. A few months previously I might have ignored him as my political enemy. But now I stopped to talk. He only talked about Taybeh, the local Palestinian beer.
Back in Tel Aviv in the summer of 2011, I began to listen more closely to the Israeli side. I remember one conversation in Shenkin Street — Tel Aviv’s most fashionable quarter, a street where everybody looks as if they went to art college. I was outside a cafe interviewing a former soldier.
He talked slowly about his time in Gaza. He spoke about 20 Arab teenagers filled with ecstasy tablets and sent running towards the base he’d patrolled. Each strapped with a bomb and carrying a hand-held detonator.
The pills in their bloodstream meant they felt no pain. Only a headshot would take them down.
Conversations like this are normal in Tel Aviv. I began to experience the sense of isolation Israelis feel. An isolation that began in the ghettos of Europe and ended in Auschwitz.
Israel is a refuge — but a refuge under siege, a refuge where rockets rain death from the skies. And as I made the effort to empathise, to look at the world through their eyes. I began a new intellectual journey. One that would not be welcome back home.
The problem began when I resolved to come back with a film that showed both sides of the coin. Actually there are many more than two. Which is why my film is called Forty Shades of Grey. But only one side was wanted back in Dublin. My peers expected me to come back with an attack on Israel. No grey areas were acceptable.
An Irish artist is supposed to sign boycotts, wear a PLO scarf, and remonstrate loudly about The Occupation. But it’s not just artists who are supposed to hate Israel. Being anti-Israel is supposed to be part of our Irish identity, the same way we are supposed to resent the English.
But hating Israel is not part of my personal national identity. Neither is hating the English. I hold an Irish passport, but nowhere upon this document does it say I am a republican, or a Palestinian.
My Irish passport says I was born in 1983 in Offaly. The Northern Troubles were something Anne Doyle talked to my parents about on the nine o’clock News. I just wanted to watch Father Ted.
So I was frustrated to see Provo graffiti on the wall in the West Bank. I felt the same frustration emerge when I noticed the missing ‘E’ in a “Free Palestin” graffiti on a wall in Cork. I am also frustrated by the anti-Israel activists’ attitude to freedom of speech.
Free speech must work both ways. But back in Dublin, whenever I speak up for Israel, the Fiachras and Fionas look at me aghast, as if I’d pissed on their paninis.
This one-way freedom of speech spurs false information. The Boycott Israel brigade is a prime example. They pressurised Irish supermarkets to remove all Israeli produce from their shelves — a move that directly affected the Palestinian farmers who produce most of their fruit and vegetables under the Israeli brand.
But worst of all, this boycott mentality is affecting artists. In August 2010, the Ireland-Palestine Solidarity Campaign got 216 Irish artists to sign a pledge undertaking to boycott the Israeli state. As an artist I have friends on this list — or at least I had.
I would like to challenge my friends about their support for this boycott. What do these armchair sermonisers know about Israel? Could they name three Israeli cities, or the main Israeli industries?
But I have more important questions for Irish artists. What happened to the notion of the artist as a free thinking individual? Why have Irish artists surrendered to group-think on Israel? Could it be due to something as crude as career-advancement?
Artistic leadership comes from the top. Aosdana, Ireland’s State-sponsored affiliation of creative artists, has also signed the boycott. Aosdana is a big player. Its members populate Arts Council funding panels.
Some artists could assume that if their name is on the same boycott sheet as the people assessing their applications, it can hardly hurt their chances. No doubt Aosdana would dispute this assumption. But the perception of a preconceived position on Israel is hard to avoid.
Looking back now over all I have learnt, I wonder if the problem is a lot simpler.
Perhaps our problem is not with Israel, but with our own over-stretched sense of importance — a sense of moral superiority disproportional to the importance of our little country?
Any artist worth his or her salt should be ready to change their mind on receipt of fresh information. So I would urge every one of those 216 Irish artists who pledged to boycott the Israeli state to spend some time in Israel and Palestine. Maybe when you come home you will bin your scarf. I did.
Nicky Larkin’s ‘Forty Shades of Grey’ will premiere in Dublin in May;
http://www.facebook.com/ fortyshades;
Originally published in Sunday Independent.
http://www.nickylarkin.com
Thank you so much Nicky, it’s good to have neutral view expressed here.
I’d have to agree that the anti-Israeli lobby here in Ireland tends to be overly harsh and one-sided.
Forty shades of grey is extremely apt.
Read this:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4213529,00.html
Why I no longer hate Israel
Op-ed: Portuguese blogger explains why he changed his views, fell in love with Israel
Romeu Monteiro
I’m a 22-year-old Portuguese gay activist and PhD student. I’m not Jewish, Israeli or even religious, but I am a Zionist and strong supporter of Israel, and I want to explain why.
My story begins at the age of nine, when I went to the school library to get the Diary of Anne Frank. I had no prior idea about the Holocaust and I could not comprehend such persecution. I had never met a Jew, but I was raised to see other people as similar to myself.
The book’s story haunted me: This girl, slightly older than me, hiding for years, confined, isolated, being persecuted for who she was, constantly fearful of being discovered… How horrible; how could this have happened?
A few months later, I discovered I was gay. I was 10 and in Anne’s attic: Confined, isolated, hiding who I was, fearing what would happen if I was discovered… I felt strongly identified with Anne and the Jewish people, and this feeling never abandoned me.
Shortly after, the second Intifada started. I began seeing Israel, a country which I knew almost nothing about, on the news constantly, for the worst reasons. I learned that the Jews had invaded Palestine after the Holocaust to get a country and were occupying and controlling the native Palestinians who lived in the remaining land.
The TV showed us these people blowing themselves up inside buses and cafes and I, like most people around me, thought: “How desperate must someone be to kill themselves like this? How could the Jews go from being oppressed to oppressors? Have they not learned the lessons of History?” I grew up loving the Jewish people but hating Israel.
In 2008, when I was 18 and in college, I found myself criticizing Israel and the Gaza Strip blockade in a YouTube video about the death of Rachel Corrie. I got an answer from an Israeli commenter about my age, who wrote that there was no blockade, as several trucks were crossing into the Strip daily.
This greatly confused me and I asked him to present me with his arguments in defense of Israel. I said I would change my mind if they were convincing. He wrote me a long message, telling me about the massacres of Jews in Palestine before Israel existed, the wars of extermination, and the indoctrination for hate of Jews and Israel in the Middle East, among other things, which he compared to several examples of the humanist character of Israel and its society.
I read it all and, after verifying the information, I was convinced…
Angry and betrayed
My world shook. I became aware that I was making unfair judgments and spreading hate and false propaganda about Israel… I was sad with myself and I felt angry and betrayed that I had trusted so much in organizations I thought were fighting for peace, equality and against prejudice, like I saw them doing for gay rights.
I realized I was being fed ignorance and hate by people who were, at best, as ignorant and prejudiced as those they were “fighting” against while believing themselves to be enlightened individuals and making me believe it too…
I read more and more about Israel, and I became fascinated with the amazing story of a people who, against all odds, had managed to survive and remain united through centuries of persecution, fight for their homeland, rebuild their country and revive their language – just like a phoenix rising from the ashes, striving for freedom and peace.
I realized Israel is a democratic, tolerant, multi-ethnic, multi-religious, rapidly developing nation. A place I could live in free and more accepted than in my home country, and the only place I could safely set foot at in the Middle East.
I found myself in love with Israel, something I never thought I would do and never really want to be.
In 2010, there was the flotilla incident. Suddenly, all media were reporting about Israel. The news reports were grossly distorted and I knew I had to do something. I found myself arguing about it with professors at the university and I started sharing videos of the IDF through my Facebook account.
I thought I would be risking much socially, but I knew it was a matter of justice, as someone had to tell the truth and not allow Israel to be demonized with no right to defense once again. After the flotilla I kept posting pro-Israel stuff, and had serious and even ugly discussions about this issue with several people.
Each discussion revealed more ignorance and double-standards and made me a stronger Zionist and supporter of Israel and its people. I thought I was the only one defending Israel but I gradually discovered other people doing it.
Once, a friend whispered in my ear: “I am also more on the side of Israel… but, please, don’t tell anyone!” She was scared to voice her opinion, and this reinforced my conviction that I had to be vocal about my defense of Israel; I was speaking for many people who were afraid to do it.
At the end it’s a matter of justice. If there’s a people that fights for its right to self-determination and to live in peace, I will be on their side. If there’s a group that is demonized by prejudice and ignorance, I will fight prejudice and ignorance with them. If there’s a culture whose main values include tolerance for different sexual orientations, races and religions – clashing with another one that educates for intolerance and hate – I know which side I’ll support.
I am a Zionist and I support the right of the Jewish people to self-rule and to life in peace, like I believe every thinking human being should.
Romeu Monteiro is an electric engineering Phd student at Carnegie Mellon University. You can see his blog here: http://romeumoskowitz.posterous.com
Wait a minute, am I’m getting spammed by the Israeli government or something?
That last comment was irrelevant.
For fuck sake, I don’t hate Israel or protest their right to existence.
I just wish they’d stop building settlements beyond the 67 borders in accordance with international law!
NEO-ZIONISM IS DIFFERENT THEN ZIONISM.
“If there’s a people that fights for its right to self-determination and to live in peace, I will be on their side.”
Hmm… funny you should say that. I didn’t see a word in that comment about Palestine’s right to statehood.
Geez…
“At the end it’s a matter of justice.”
Ultimately, if we can’t rely on International law, there is no justice for any of us.
NN,
You’re right. Israel should stop building beyond the 67′ borders. But, you and others who possess the same political view like you, should also condemn the Palestinian’s daily terror, their anti Semite education and the glorification of those so-called freedom-fighters who kills civilians.
The allegedly European intellectuals should demand the Palestinians to cease from all those things. It’s irrational to blame it all on one side cause, as we all know, It takes two to tango. When the blaming on one side is taking place too often it may look like a blind aggression toward one side and therefore as a pure hatred.
If you need an example to this hatred you should look again at that loathsome stuff you wrote about the Israeli girls, which offended me and others. You insist it was written only about those “Neo-Zionist” girls. Anyhow, it’s irrelevant whom you wrote it about, because hatred is hatred. What I’m trying to argue is that it’s really looks like a genuine hate that is engraved deep inside you, and that is a negative thing no matter whom this hatred aimed to.
Perhaps my brief experience in Israel left a bad taste in my mouth.
I’ve been to 78 countries and I can honestly say I’ve never felt more unwelcome. Firstly, the immigration guard quizzed me nearly 30 minutes, then insulted me and called me stupid for wearing a sombrero, I was told to “Fuck off” by a chick just for saying hello, one the girls we were travelling with (she’s looks half-Indian) was actually spat on by an 60 year old woman leaving a Synagogue and my best friend was kicked to the ground for talking about how cool Iranians were went he went to Tehran. And that was only our first day! WTF?
I had me pre-conceptions about the conflict, but that trip did not help.
The problem is I think ardent supporters of Israel are a bit naive.
If you look at the facts on the ground, support for the two state solution by the Israeli government has been empty rhetoric. Settlement expansion continues, occupation continues, and the construction the illegal wall beyond the 67 border continues. AIPAC and Israel have wielded their influence on the Obama administration to veto Palestine’s bid for UN membership (when all 14 other member of the UNSC and the majority of the General Assembly supported the bid). In fact, when Palestine tried anyway, the US cut their funding to the PA.
My Jewish Canadian friends showed me the business card of their tour guide for birthright (standard issue). On the back is a map of Israel. Guess what? The map was the entire holy land.
“What is Palestine?” as one local Israeli girl put it.
Neo-Zionism is alive and well, both practically and ideologically. Anyone who thinks otherwise has their head in the sand or is blinded by the romanticism of the Jewish struggle.
Yes, Israel has the right to exist. Yes, the Jews needed a homeland. Yes, they probably even have a case for the expansion of the 47/48 borders to the 67 borders considering they got invaded by their Arab neighbours–which halved Palestinian land from 44% to 22%, even though the majority of the land was populated by Palestinians.
But what I can’t justify (and I’m sure many if not most Israelis would agree) is the continuation of settlement expansion and other neo-Zionist activity. It an insult to the peace process and inspires violence on the other side. It is the crux of the problem, as is the annexation of Jerusalem, the 67 borders, and the right of return for refugees.
You said a lot of things. Most of them have been already answered in Mr. Truth last comment that you censored. Maybe Mr. Truth will be kind enough and re-write his last comment and maybe you, NN, would let it thru.
Now, I’d like to answer what you said.
Firstly, your first day experience in Israel. What can I say, SOME of the Israelis can be intense some times, but it is only because they don’t agree to take shit from no one. Are you 100% sure that you and your friends haven’t provoke them, and thus faced those responses? Are you sure that this behavior was much different than what you experienced in other places? I’m sure you think that the Israelis intense behavior is on account of the conflict, but it’s not; I’ve been around and I can tell you that the population of the major metropolis anywhere, third world and western world, are somewhat rude. The Israelis aren’t different – you’ll find rude Israelis and you’ll find nice welcoming Israelis.
Secondly, those “facts” on the ground you talked about. The real facts are:
1. Israel withdrew from ALL the major Palestinian cities and 450 villages and armed thousands of PA’s policemen during the second half of the 90′s, as part of the Oslo Accords (called Oslo 2). What Israel got in return? That was Al-Aqsa Intifada that claimed the lives of more then 1,000 Israelis, some of them were murdered by those AK-47s that the PA’s policemen received. How could Israel ever reoccupy the major Palestinian cities, fighting terrorists, if those cities have never been left for Palestinians rule? Well, they have! But for curious reason it is easy for some to forget it.
2. Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip during the summer of 2005, evacuating thousands of Israeli civilians from their houses. What was the Palestinians response? Constant rocket firing on Israelis cities, towns, villages and kibbutzs, and all sort of other methods of terrorist attacks such as sniper shooting, mortar shelling, IEDs, armed infiltration on civilian population, kidnapping, extortion over bodies and much more. Now, don’t even bother to give me that old excuse about the Israeli blockade on the Gaza strip. That blockade, which is not really a blockade because supplies are getting in daily, is necessary because of the Hamas rule on Gaza, Because of those attacks that I detailed above and because the Gaza Strips had practically become a Iranian frontal base.
3. Speaking of Iranian frontal bases, The Southern Lebanon area is another example (though it is not Palestinian in there). Israel withdrew from Southern Lebanon in May, 2000. What Israel got in response? Pretty much the same stuff that happened in the Gaza Strip after the Israeli withdrew only more dangerous. The Hezbollah, which is recognized by many Western countries as a terrorist organization, is an Iranian-sponsored militia practically ruling Lebanon aimed to attack Israel.
4. “…support for the two state solutions by the Israeli government has been empty rhetoric”. False! You are wrong and misleading. Former Prime-Minister Ehud Barak and former Prime-Minister Ehud Olmert offered the Palestinians more than they ever imagined, some will say more than what Israel can afford, at the 2000 Camp David Summit and the 2007 Annapolis Conference. They offered pretty much everything except a full right of return for refugees.
5. A full right of return for refugees means only one thing – The end of the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. Period. Thus, someone who demand the right of return for refugees is actually deny the right of Israel to be the one asylum for the Jews of the world and deny the right of Israel for existence. The Palestinian’s insistence on the right of return for refugees was simply a continuous strategy to eliminate any permanence agreement, sometimes even before it got the chance to be discussed. Anyway, how come the Palestinians still regarded as “refugees” even though 64 years have passed? How come the Palestinians refugees are the only refugees throughout the world that has their own United Nations refugee agency (UNRWA)? Are they anyhow more important than the other millions of refugees around the world? How come no one ever talk about the approximately one million Jewish refugees which where banished from several Arab and Muslim countries, only guilt of being Jews and not necessarily Zionists, during the Israeli War of Independence? Did you ever hear anything about those refugees?
6. You said that the settlement expansion continues. As you probably know, and for some reason ignore, Prime-Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stopped any settlement expansion for almost a year, due to President Obama’s demand trying to estimate the Palestinian’s seriousness to reach an agreement. The results showed Obama that there is no true seriousness on the Palestinian’s side.
7. The construction of the so-called illegal wall beyond the 67′ border directly saved the lives of countless of Israelis, Jews and Arabs. It was built after numerous deadly terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians at the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Any problematic part of the fence (which is called “wall” only as an attempt to delimitate it, 95% of it is just a fence) was examine by the Supreme Court of Israel, which is known worldwide for its impartialness, some will even say that it has left-wing orientation. In some cases the Supreme Court ordered the fence must be moved, and it has been actually moved in the cost of millions.
8. The Obama administration veto Palestinian’s bid for UN membership because of the correct assumption that no good will be come from one-side acts. The only way is the discussion table. And don’t give me that almost-racist (have you ever hared of “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion”?) stuff about the AIPAC secret influence on the US policy. It is nothing but a fair play by the rules. Anyone who can lobby for its own interest would do it just the same.
9. That business card of the tour guide for birthright that your Jewish Canadian friends showed you means nothing. It’s more a stupidity than a formal policy of the State of Israel. So you shouldn’t lean your argument on that card as decisive evidence for Neo-Zionism.
Don’t censor that comment. Let the open debate continue.
Oh, one more thing, a very important one:
The Neo-Zionist activity, as you called it, is by no way “the crux of the problem”. That is a common mistake, or a common misleading when it comes from people with even just a small amount of knowledge. The problem (i.e. the conflict) began many years before 1967. Actually, the conflict began when the Arab people who inhabit the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, realized that a Jewish sovereign state is about to be establish in that area. They realized that fact some decades before the actual Israeli Declaration of Independence (May, 1948), perhaps as early as the late 1880′s. If you, or anyone else, want to broaden your knowledge on that subject you should read about the 1920 Nabi Musa riots (also called 1920 Jerusalem riots), the 1921 Jaffa riots, the 1929 Massacres, the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine, and many more incidents.
All those examples also refute your misleading argument that the “Neo-Zionist activity” inspires violence on the other side (the Palestinian’s side). As I demonstrated, the violence has been there much before Neo-Zionism ever existed. Furthermore, your argument according to which the Palestinian’s violence must have some reasons which is external to their own social-cultural character, is a very common patronize Western intellectuals way of thinking, as if to say: “those indigenous are just like a young children, we can’t blame them for their own behavior, if they done anything wrong it must be us (the Westerners) to blame”. This is simply arrogance. As if they don’t use harsh violence among themselves towards their own brothers (q.v. the Fatah–Hamas conflict or the Palestinian Civil War), not mentioning the widely common savage domestic violence, the criminal violence and the widespread violence throughout the Arab world which is part of the Arab social-culture (q.v. “The Arab Spring”, which is by now clear to be “The Arab autumn”), even though some politically-correct hypocrites trying to say otherwise.
You’re comments won’t be censored. Mr.Truth was banned because his last comments insulted me by calling me a racist Nazi. He can go fuck himself. You on the other hand, explain yourself well.
Now, allow me to tackle your points and questions.
1. “Are you 100% sure that you and your friends haven’t provoke them, and thus faced those responses?” The girl we were with was just sipping a coffee when she got spat on. As for other friend, I can’t be 100% sure as I didn’t listen to 100% of the conversation, but he’s never provoked a fight in his life. I stand by what I said, but I understand my experience was subjective, brief, and geographical limited, which is why I said I’m willing to give the place another chance.
“Are you sure that this behavior was much different than what you experienced in other places?”
Moscow and Hanoi weren’t far behind, but Jerusalem trumps. I put this down to cultural indoctrination through mandatory conscription and the subsequent brainwashing and tribalism. Two years being constantly told what to do and think in a military setting doesn’t exactly inspire independent thinking.
2. They should have never occupied them in the first place. You talk about 1000 Israelis dead and being forgetful, but what about the Palestinian loses? Since 2000, 6,537 Palestinians have died compare to 1,092 Israelis. Did you forget that? If we have a “who killed more” competition, Israel wins. But hey, those 6,537 killed were all terrorists who wanted to kill the poor Israeli children, right?
3. “Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip during the summer of 2005.” And so they should have. If you grew in Gaza, which is effectively mimics the world’s largest open-air prison, you’d probably want to blow the gatekeepers up, too. Add political and religious extremism and the problem gets worse. I don’t condone the violence, but its very understandable, as is Israel’s right to defend itself. The problem is Israel take the fucking piss. They violate International law with disproportional use of force (Gaza 2008: 1,300 Palestinians killed, 1/3 of which were women & children vs 13 Israelis) and their use of illegal weapons (the use of white phosphorous have been empirically documented).
4. That’s a little out of context, but now that you mentioned it, the Israeli military overstayed their “welcome” in Lebanon by a few years don’t you think? How kind of them to withdraw after leaving the country in fucking ruins and costing Israelis a fortune. That said, I understand why they went in the first place. The war with Lebanon requires a whole new debate, so lets park it for now. I don’t support Iranian or Hezbollah policy on Israel so we can agree on that one. Your mentioning anti-Zionist Iranian projects doesn’t justify my friend being beaten up for speaking well of the Iranian people he met while he was there.
5. ” ‘…support for the two state solutions by the Israeli government has been empty rhetoric.’ False! You are wrong and misleading… They offered pretty much everything except a full right of return for refugees.” So what has actually been done? Settlement expansion continues.
6. This point is really depressing. Essentially, you justify the expulsion on one people in order to replace them for another people. Why? That’s called racism. It’s the same puritan, religious, tribalistic entitlement and discrimination that the Nazis espoused. Only Liberia has the same warped view on citizenship (only African blacks can be citizens). It happened to the Jews, and now the slave becomes the master. But hey, an eye for an eye, right? We should tell every Palestinians to just “Fuck off to some other Arab shithole and stay there!” so we can leave the holy land to the chosen people.
BTW- maybe you should visit the “refugee” camps in Lebanon and just kindly explain to them that they are in fact NOT refugees. Maybe then we can all leave happily ever after.
7. “As you probably know, and for some reason ignore, Prime-Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stopped any settlement expansion for almost a year.” WRONG! In March 2012, it was revealed that the Civil Administration, a unit of the IDF, has over the years covertly earmarked 10% of the West Bank for further settlement
8. Hate to break to you, but the “so-called illegal wall/barbed wired fence/barrier” is actually illegal.
9.”The Obama administration veto Palestinian’s bid for UN membership because of the correct assumption that no good will be come from one-side acts.”
Sigh…
Apart from showing the world that the US is Israel’s bitch, majority support by the UNGA would have legal implications for Palestinian statehood even without fulfilment of the Montevideo Criteria. End result: The people of the world can legally prosecute war crimes both both sides.
10. No comment. I think you’ve actually helped my case there.
11. No I’m really pissed off. I’ve spent nearly an hour writing this response. LOOK UP NEO-ZIONISM! It only emerged in the 70s! For fuck sake, you’ve written a couple thousand words and don’t even know what the debate is about.
Oh, and I looked up you IP address. Surprise, surprise it’s from ISRAEL.
I thought I was speaking with someone who was impartial. I know now a reasonable, logically debate is now impossible due to your inherent bias and cultural indoctrination.
For the last time for the slow ones…
I DON’T SUPPORT NEO-ZIONISM, WHICH IS DIFFERENT THAN ZIONISM. NEO-ZIONISM DOES NOT SUPPORT THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.
Q & A
“Duh, does that mean you’re an anti-semitic Nazi?”
No, that’s mean I’m anti-racist and support human rights and International law.
“Duh, but why you hating on the Jerusalem chicks?”
But the ones I met were brainwashed, masculine, hostile bigots.
“Duh, but the holocaust and stuff…”
Yeah, that sucked. I support Israel’s right to exist and endorse the 67 borders.
“…but some evil Palestinian terrorist killed my parents.”
That really sucks, honestly. I’m not a monster, I’m only trying to be objective. If we can’t rely on International Law, we’re ALL fucked. I’m a humanist and hope one day there will be peace and prosperity for both peoples.
Lol
Don’t hate on Israelians. Hate on their elite Indoctrinating them with the “chosen people” talmudic bullshit.
The Talmud is very clear:
Jews are human being. Gentiles (non Jews) are animals.
Period
Are y’all ready? OK, here we go:
Yes, I’m an Israeli. It doesn’t make my opinion and my sense of justice any inferior to yours. Guess what, I looked up on your online “trail of evidence”, but not like you, I had the fairness not to use what I found or even to hint about it. Yes, I guess I’m a “victim” to some “inherent bias and cultural indoctrination”, guess what – you too, we all are. Read again that Nicky Larkin’s op-ed, he explained it better than me.
I really don’t think that Mr. Truth called you a racist Nazi. I’m pretty sure he just tried to alert you that those stuff you wrote makes you sound like one.
1. That spitting incident is extremely weird. I’m a little bit older than you and I’ve never encountered such a behavior anywhere, inside Israel or abroad. I’m sorry that this was your experience in Israel. About four million tourists visit Israel annually and I know that many of them having here the time of their life. I hope you and your friends will get the chance to have a real Israeli experience.
You are deeply wrong saying that mandatory conscription promoting brainwashing, tribalism and non-independent way of thinking. Your opinion is very common for some who want so hard to think of themselves as enlightened left-wing liberals (I bet you also think that organized sports is fascist, right?). First, we don’t enlist for two years. Second, that military service, which is customary in other Western countries such as Swaziland and Finland, gives us the chance to take on ourselves responsibility that you probably wouldn’t have in your life. We command on troops, fly jets, teaching (yes, the IDF got many projects for the sake of helping disadvantaged population to earn their diploma), and much more. To do these tasks we have to use our independent thinking. I think that the time we spend in the army makes us much more mature, reasonable and responsible than young people in other Western countries that don’t have mandatory conscription.
2. The IDF occupied the West Bank as part of the fighting against the Jordanian army, which was known, back then, to be one of the best armies in the Arab world. The presence of the Jordanian army so close to the Israeli home front was a grave danger. You don’t have to be Napoleon Bonaparte to understand it.
Not all of the 3,980 (your figure is incorrect) dead Palestinians “were terrorist who wanted to kill the poor Israeli children”, but most of them were. I will say more on that subject in the next section…
3. The Israeli disproportional use of force is a misleading rhetoric, made by people who know nothing about fighting and know even less about the Israeli’s strategy to face terror. Try to understand, when you go out to fight your enemy you can’t limit yourself to the precise amount of casualties that some people far way in Ireland, or anywhere else, think that is proper. If there is any army around the world that actually does that kind of irrational limitation it is the IDF. I’ll quote what Mr. Truth correctly wrote: “The IDF literally risking Israeli soldiers and Israeli civilians by taking actions intent of trying not to endanger unarmed Palestinian civilians. Other countries such as the United States, United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, France and many other, who send troops to Afghanistan, thousands of kilometers away of their homelands (not fighting near their home like Israel), never done half to protect civilians of being victims to fighting than what Israel doing daily.”
The IDF don’t use illegal weapons! The documented use of white phosphorus was only for the purpose of curtaining the battlefield, not to kill people. Don’t believe everything the European media feed you. You probably don’t know, or don’t want to know, that the Palestinian terrorist organizations (Hamas, The Islamic Jihad and more) in the Gaza Strip use, from time to time, white phosphorus mortars shells to bomb Israeli population. But that no interest for the European media.
4. The IDF stayed in Southern Lebanon too long, but it was mandatory to assure the safety of the population of Northern Israel, according to the balance of forces back then and to the technology that the IDF had back then. Israel didn’t left “the country in fucking ruins”; the Lebanese did it on their own in The Lebanese Civil War. Everybody fought everybody in there. It was some really crazy chaos.
I’m glad we can agree on the subject of Iran and Hezbollah.
5. Again and again you ignore the Palestinian’s continuous refusal to reach for agreement. Ignoring the problem won’t make it disappear.
6. I don’t “justify the expulsion on one people in order to replace them for another people”. I’m saying that what’s done is done. There is no realistic way to reverse it now. As I said: “The Palestinian’s insistence on the right of return for refugees was simply a continuous strategy to eliminate any permanent agreement”, they know that it’s not realistic.
That comparison to the Liberian view on citizenship showed me that you simply don’t understand the Israeli national identity, and it is not surprising me because it’s not an easy thing to comprehend. Let me try to explain it: The Israeli national identity is, of course, based on the Jewish tradition. Since the beginning of the Zionist movement, being Jewish is much more than being someone who follows the Jewish religion. As you probably know, there are many secular Jews (I’m one of them). Now, as part of a worldwide aspirations of almost every group of people (what you know, the Palestinians are one of those groups) for a self- determination in a sovereign state, the Jewish people also had the same aspirations. It’s no different than the national aspirations of the French, the Germans, the Irish, and the Japanese and so on. The only difference is that the Jews were united enough (though spread all over the world) to maintain their religious identity, not becoming Christians (like the various people of Europe) or anything else. So, what we have now is a group of people with one religion, one national identity and some will say one race. That doesn’t mean that aspirating for a Jewish state for the Jewish people is racist. We are a rare case of history; According to all history precedents we’ve already supposed to be eliminated. The fact that we survived is nothing less than a miracle. So, when the state era emerged to the world, the Jews wanted to have a state of their own, the same as any other people.
BTW – I did visit the “refugee” camps (“camps” – I pretty sure that many think that those are some poor tent camps; they don’t know that it’s actually an Arab typical neighborhoods) and I can explain you that the hosting Arabs countries did NOTHING to help their Palestinians brothers who became refugees. Actually, in some issues the Palestinian of the West Bank has better quality of life than those in the Arab countries. I guess you will refuse to agree on what I’m about to say, but I’m still going the say it: The Palestinian’s leadership has an interest to maintain its own people in a miserable refugees appearing for the sake of receiving national assistance, i.e. A LOT of money, that is being stolen from the Palestinian people by its own corrupted leadership. And that was empirically documented and proven.
And again, not a single word about the approximately one million Jewish refugees.
7. I don’t know why you added this information about that March 2012 revelation. I already said that the building in the settlements should be stopped. There is nothing wrong in what I said on the subject in my previous comment: Prime-Minister Benjamin Netanyahu stopped any settlement expansion for almost a year, due to President Obama’s demand, who understood that that there is no true seriousness on the Palestinian’s side.
8. Hate to break to you, but the “so-called illegal wall/barbed wired fence/barrier” is actually saved the lives of countless of Israelis civilians and is actually being build under the scrutinizing eye of the Supreme Court of Israel. No other country would’ve do it better then the way Israel doing that troublesome task.
9. The Palestinians should have and would have a state of their own, bet the only way to get there is thru the discussion table. One-side acts will only make worst of the already very complex situation.
I’m not going to answer that “US is Israel’s bitch” thing. You don’t really mean it and you know it. But, if it is true, then I guess Russia and China are both Syria’s bitches, defending Assad at the UNGA from answering his crimes. And let me give you a free advice: Don’t bother trying to defend the murderous Assad regime, who kills thousands of its own people, as you already alluded in your blog; it’s extremely inappropriate for someone who consider himself as a humanist.
10. I’m not sure what you haven’t comment in this section, but if it’s that stupid business card thing then I don’t understand how I helped your case here. As I said, the entire holy land is an irrational dream of very few people in Israel, NOT a formal state policy. Every democratic country should have a wide spectrum of political views which consist in the sides of it some more radical political views, left and right, as long as they don’t use violence. So, like any other democratic country, Israel has those radical political views, left and right.
11. I think you are the one that don’t even know what the debate is about. You said that the “Neo-Zionist activity” is the crux of the problem and inspires violence on the Palestinian’s side. I corrected that false assumption and explained you and others who read this, that the hostility between the Arabs and the Jews of the land of Israel preceded the “occupation”, the settlements and the “Neo-Zionism” as a whole. If you think that after the establishment of a Palestinian sovereign state, we will all live in this region in peace and harmony then you are simply naive. The Arabs and Muslims of the world, with the Palestinians among them, can’t accept a Jewish state in the holly land. Unfortunately, as it seems for now, the best we can hope is only a normalization of the relations between the Arabs and the Jews inhabiting the Middle East.
Q & A
“Are you an Israeli?”
Yes, but I’d like you to think of me and my people, before all, as human beings who want peace and want to live quietly.
“So, you hate the Palestinians, don’t you? You want them all to be dead?”
No, I’m defiantly not! I want them to be part of the peace in this region which will provide them the chance to elevate their quality of life and to live in prosperity. I also hope they’ll one day truly abandoned the way of terror and acknowledge that a Jewish state will continue to exist here.
“Oh, I know – you hate those Europeans who think they now anything about that conflict, right?”
No, I don’t. But I do think that many of them don’t know much about that conflict and almost everything they do know comes directly from the bias European media which is hostile to Israel. I think many of those Europeans trying to make Israel pay for their own feelings of guilt dating way back to their colonial past, after embracing to hard that Postmodernism multicultural way of thinking, blaming anyone who thinks different to be influenced by brainwash and tribalism. I think that some of the younger ones (teenagers, students) sometimes feel they have to talk against Israel only to be consider as “cool” among their friends. I think that this kind of European involvement in the conflict won’t help to resolve it, and is risking making it more complicated. I really want to thing that their hearts are in the right place and it’s only their minds that aren’t.
Hey Nomad, being a surfer who travels all over the world and gets paid for it, I find your website extremely helpful for me and the terms you have are awesome-me and other surfers I compete and travel with use them all the time. You are a different kind of genius.
Anyways, having been to Jerusalem I completely agree with your points. Me being from California I will never know what its like to be oppressed but what I do know is Palestinians are being forced against their will in Gaza – KINDA LIKE CONCENTRATION CAMPS!!!
I have Jewish friends I grew up with and surf with and even they think what’s going on in Gaza ss horrible. And the American media is not helping with all the propaganda they push on us. Everything we see on the news in the States is anti-Palestinian and pro-Israeli – but after all, the entire world knows that the US is Israel’s best buddy and our media and Hollywood is largely run by Jews.
Just so you know, there are lots of people in the States that see past the bullshit. I also think its hilarious.
Oh and before all the psychopaths get on me about my punctuation and spelling, I’m on a Iphone and my keyboard is jacked up. I’m not a retarded racist Nazi.
I did beat the brakes off a narrow-minded Israeli girl’s pussy when I was in Israel 3 years ago. It was awesome. I told her I was a atheist after I left via text message just to piss her off. She was very confused about why people from the United States were circumcised haha.
@Readme: I admire your moxy. Here we go again…
1. Yes, I would be glad to return and will give it another chance. I hear Tel Aviv is really cool and the people are more liberal than in Jerusalem.
The debate about whether mandatory is a good or bad thing is another debate. You said,
“You are deeply wrong saying that mandatory conscription promoting brainwashing, tribalism and non-independent way of thinking.”
I disagree. I think you’ll find empirical research that shows a correlation between nationalism (and thus tribalism) and military service. “Rank and file” is inherently authoritarian and actively discourages dissent and requires a certain level and brainwashing. By this, I mean instilling necessary attributes for military advantage: the paradigm of us and them, such as the demonisation and dehumanisation of “military targets” or indeed whole populations, while the victimisation of one’s own populations. As many readers can probably see, this paradigm is clearly demonstrated by Israeli commenter above. “Security” justifies aggression to protect from “Terrorists”. It was the rhetoric of Bush, Hitler, Stalin and other aggressors in history. I’m not saying the Israeli government compare, but they ARE the aggressors in the conflict. The number of dead confirm that – as well as the number of UN resolutions against Israel and world public opinion. All populations are brainwashed to garner support for the realpolik. Growing up in Israel, it would be extremely difficult to remain impartial. (FYI- I play organised sport and I’m not as left-wing as you may think.)
2. “The presence of the Jordanian army so close to the Israeli home front was a grave danger.”
I’m sure they thought the same thing… and they were right – you invaded them!
“Not all of the 3,980 (your figure is incorrect) dead Palestinians “were terrorist who wanted to kill the poor Israeli children”, but most of them were.”
This is a good example of the point I made above. A lot of those “terrorists” were women and children. Anyway, both are sources appear to be incorrect.
The United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (independent) shows that between 2000-2007 “Of those killed in the conflict, 4,228 have been Palestinians, 1,024 Israelis, and 63 foreign citizens.” That was prior to the war in Gaza in 2008 were approx. 1,300 Palestinian and 13 Israelis were killed.
This is not a joke so I will highlight this point.
According to the UN, between 2000-2008:
At least 5528 Palestinians and 1047 Israeli have been killed in the conflict. To deny this independently verified fact and play down the numbers would be offensive. For the Palestinian people, it’s the equivalent of someone playing down the holocaust.
3. “The Israeli disproportional use of force is a misleading rhetoric.”
War on Gaza 2008: 1,300 Palestinians killed vs 13 Israelis, where 1/3 of causalities on the Palestinain side were women and children. The facts speak for themselves.
4.”The IDF don’t use illegal weapons!” Using white phosphorous in civilian areas IS illegal.
5. Yes, we agree. I wouldn’t trust Ahmadinejad as far as I could throw him. The likelihood is they are making the bomb… or at least I think so. Unless they comply with international inspectors and authorities, a pre-emptive attack by Israel on their these nuclear facilities would be probably be justified (I see this happening, too).
6. Yes, the Palestinians have been just as stubborn. I recognise that. The right of return is probably a no-runner in the long-run, but as we both agreed, the 67 borders should be respected as they undermine the process in the first place. Israeli is an European ally. You espouse the same democratic values as we, so we expect your government to be “the bigger man” in this regard.
7. OK, I think I get where your coming from. Essentially your argument is Israeli national identity “the tribe” is based primarily on cultural linage, as opposed to just the racial and religious factors. I’d actually agree. You have your own language, traditional and values, after all. Although Zionism has it’s roots in religion, I get that it’s much more than that.
Let’s be honest, the creation of Israel was a fucking mess. I believe the UN even considered place like Argentina, Uganda and even Montana as a homeland for the Jews, but it didn’t work out. Anyway, as you said, what’s done is done. No state is born without struggle (Ireland, case in point).
I re-iterate, I support Israel’s right to exist within the 67 borders. I may not agree with the refugees issue on principal, but I’m a realist. I can understand why the right of the return isn’t on the table. I may not like it, but I get it.
8. Illegal settlement expansion continues, as that report shows. There is no justification for it. You even agree about the 67 borders.
9. You’re taking the piss, right? International Law trumps what the Supreme Court of Israel says. The idea its for “security” might be a good one if that was the case, but all you have to do is look at a map. Anybody with a pair of eyes can see it a good of fashion land grab. You deny the reality neo-zionism? Take a look at what your government is doing..
10. It’s to reach a fair agreement when one side has all the guns.
I would never defend the Assad regime and I support International law and human rights. The only the I’ve alluded to is the fact that everyone we spoke with the fact in Damascus supports him, and that a real bias in the foreign media exists. In fact, several Al Jazeera staff quit over the issue.
11. You need to see things from the other side. In the 21st century, many Arab countries have endorse Israel’s right to exist. The thing is, the majority of the hostility you experience from the current generation is precisely because of the occupation of Palestine – current affairs trump history. That’s why world opinion is behind the Palestinian statehood. Unless YOUR government respect the rules of International Law, you won’t be respected and your legitimacy will be undermined. Normalisation will come in time. You can’t be at war with the world forever. Arab countries are guilty of the same aggressive behaviour, but at least their leaders can be tamed to some extent with economic incentives.
PS – Tuché on the Q&A. However I think the Israel media is 100x more bias than the rich tapestry of European news agencies which across several countries. I’m a media maniac and also watch American, Middle Eastern, Chinese and Russian news. You can only play the bias card so much. I’m concerned with facts, logic, reason and humanism… not radical opinion or trends.
CONCLUSION
You seem like a smart guy and admittedly this debate has given me food for thought. It got heated at times as we both feel strongly about the issue, but at least we both agree that neo-zionism (the belief that Palestine does not have the right to exist) is ethically unsound.
With that, we should conclude. I enjoyed debating with you, but I’ve invested several hours I don’t have into our discussion. To put it bluntly, I’m afraid we have to break up. It’s not you, it’s me. I want to see other commenters.
Admittedly, I understand how my article might have offended you and other Israelis, who let’s be frank, get enough shit as it is. I wanted to provoke a response and I certainly succeeded!
Anyway, I look forward to visiting your country and Palestine again and I’m sure I’ll have a lot more positive thing to say about it then – especially after I bang some more of your beautiful women!
Shalom!
NN
Yea man, it was a very long debate, wasn’t it?
I’ve also invested in it several hours I don’t have.
In your last comment you wrote some nice stuff on the personal aspect. Thank you for this.
I know I’m not suppose to submit another comment after your conclusion but, aside of those nice stuff you wrote, you also made some statements that I just can’t leave un-answered after the long hours I spent in this debate. Sorry.
So, what I’m going to do is to try hard to answer very shortly only the fundamental issues and to try even harder to write in a non-provocative manner that will keep this debate from re-heating.
O.K. so, very shortly:
1. I guess you’re right – military service can promote nationalism and those other stuff you talked about. I guess it’s also true, a least for a certain degree, in the case of the Israeli military service. But, the IDF is much different than other armies around the world. It is a very non-formal one: we don’t have all that “yes, sir” and “no, sir” which you can find in other armies and in American movies or TV; we don’t address our commanders as “sergeant” or “lieutenant”, but by their given names and sometimes simply as “dude”; we sit with them to drink beer (off-duty of course) to talk about our girlfriends and stuff. It’s not this Red-Army-kind-of-thing, where the soldier is taken away from his home not returning for almost a year or two. We are coming back home approximately every second weekend, so we kind of carry on with our “pre-military” lives. We play Saturday-football (soccer) with our high-school friends and go out to parties trying to hook-up (for those who are single), just like someone in collage. Whenever it’s possible we get out of our uniforms, walking around in our “civilian” clothes. We spend much of our time talking about our post-service plans (trips around the world, getting in university and so on). What I’m trying to say is that it’s kind of easy to keep your pre-service individual-spirit in the type of service that we do in IDF.
Look man, sometimes “security” does justify aggression to protect from “Terrorist”. It is not some kind of Middle-Eastern law; this is the world we live in. I hope to see the day that the world wouldn’t be that way.
If there is one reason that Israel is the aggressor in this conflict, it’s not because of the number of dead (again – when you fight, you fight), not because of the UN resolutions (bloc-voting makes automatic majority against Israel no matter what the subject is), and not because of the public opinion (some places/countries supports Israel); It’s because Israel kind of control what’s going on in the West-Bank. Not ruling, I emphasize, inspecting. If you add the terror-factor to the equation, Israel may come out as the defender.
2. The Jordanian Army was close to the Israeli home-front (Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem). The IDF wasn’t close to the Jordanian home-front (Amman). In 67′, Israel invaded an area that Jordan invaded in 48′, outside of the Kingdom of Jordan, in the West-Bank of the Jordan River. So we haven’t invaded them.
This is a delicate subject: Yes, the IDF kills more of those in the other side than what they kill in our side. It’s was that way through all of the IDF’s conflicts, no matter if the other side was an army or terror organization. What can I say; we are good in defending ourselves and claiming high numbers of casualties from our enemy, even if it’s not easy to read this. We fight better, using better weapons and better tactics. There’s must be a reason the IDF always being placed in the top 10 of “the world’s best armies” lists. When you fight, you fight; you do what ever you can not harming unarmed civilian, but you fight.
About those Palestinians women and children casualties: Yes, some of them were tragic victims of urban fighting in dense areas. No one wants it to happen. Others, you must understand, were victims of organizations like Hamas and The Islamic Jihad, who build their front-lines inside neighborhoods using civilian as shields. You also can’t rule out the option that some, Mostly children and teenagers, take part in the fighting as child-soldiers.
Anyway, how many dead in our side would make the numbers “legitimate”? It’s a rhetorical question, so you don’t need to answer.
BTW – I’m not going to play down the numbers and I’m pretty sure that the Palestinians themselves don’t refer to those years (2000-2010) as their holocaust.
3. As I said – you don’t count bodies while fighting to stop yourself in the “right” place. And that is a rhetorical question again – how many of us should die to make the numbers balanced and “satisfying”?
4. O.K.
5. Let’s hope the international pressure will do the work to prevent Iran from nuclear weapon.
6. Agree.
7. You proved to be open-minded. I respect it very much.
Just an informative remark: the Uganda Programme for a Jewish homeland was a British idea, which was discussed in the World Zionist Congress in the beginning of the 20th century, and was rejected because the Zionist Movement had a clear relevant purpose.
8. O.K.
9. Yes, in some cases there was a land grab. The Supreme Court of Israel tried to prevent it, maybe not 100% successful, but surely very influence. In other cases there are security reasons. Dude, I’m honestly not exaggerating – few years ago we literally suffered almost daily suicide bombing, booby-trapped cars and other stuff in Israel’s cities. Since the building of the fence it was reduced to almost none.
10. O.K. it’s your impression. You are the one that visited Syria.
11. I can agree with much of what you said here but not all of it. Maybe the criticism towards Israel in the Western World is because of the settlements, 67′ borders and so on. But It’s really feels (and It’s more than just an abstract feeling) that in the Arab and Muslim World it’s more fundamental than it. I can’t prove it. We’ll have to wait to the day this conflict will be over and hope for the best…
And man, we are not at war with the world, come on.
I think Arab countries guilty of much more aggressive behavior, at least some of them.
I can’t judge the “bias rate” of the Israeli media. I’ll only say that many consider it as a very left-wing oriented non-impartial media. It’s funny how much is it all depends on point of perspective.
In your conclusion you wrote: “…at least we both agree that Neo-Zionism is ethically unsound.” You have to understand that for me it’s greatly important that we both agree that the way of terror (intentionally targeting unarmed civilians) is immoral and must be clearly and loudly condemn. I’m honestly couldn’t conclude the debate without adding this.
You’re right – this discussion should come to an end. It was a time-consumer, but definitely enjoyable. You certainly proved yourself not to be one of those “don’t-know-much-Europeans”. You know a lot about the history of the conflict and you explained your arguments clearly.
I tried to write this comment shortly and non-provocative. Hope I succeeded. Maybe you found something provocative even though I didn’t mean it to be. Here is a little “test”:
Two days ago it was Israel’s official Memorial Day, by far the saddest day in Israel all year round, and yesterday was the 64th Israel’s Independence Day. So, happy Birth Day Israel. If you find that last greeting provocative, then there’s much more to be said (but I guess will save it for some other time).
I’m adding this two links and not copy-pasting them in my comment, because I promised to try to make it a short one and because it’s more of a broadening to the debate than an important argument in it. I’ll appreciate very much if you, and others, would read it:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4220976,00.html
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4205393,00.html
Hope this comment went through…
You said Shalom. In Hebrew it means both “Hello”, “Peace” and “Goodbye”.
So I’m saying Dia duit, Síocháin agus Beannacht (hope I got it right).
Haha…Hate to say but I told you so.